I think you are confusing, and/or blending, things I am saying, maybe. There are people calling for the violence part of revolution, and they tend to do so on posts that discuss, other, non-violent aspects of it. They can’t out-right say these things, as direct calls for violence will get you censored, but what they say has no other logical conclusion. Such as you can’t get what was taken by force, without force. Whether you call it adventurism, or revolution, matters not, as this is what the people I am seeing are claiming it to be. Whether they are correct, or not, is not the point here.
I am saying we need organization, and planning, first, however we are at the point, at least in the US, where I truly doubt peaceful revolution is possible. You need a plan when you are enacting revolution otherwise you either get nowhere, or you decapitate the state you are against, and leave a vacuum of power to fill, and descend into chaos. I hard disagree that you don’t actively plan for revolutionary action. Historically there has always been some level of planning, the level of planning tends to be a major determining factor on the cohesion of the end result.
My underlying point is that the people I see calling for “force to take back what was taken by force now”, or whatever euphemisms, or vagueries, they may be using to say “we need hot conflict to resolve this, and that means violence”, have never really dealt with any of the type of violence that goes into a society changing revolt. Often they will also blame people not “taking up arms”, so to speak, as the problem, while they, themselves, do not do this either. This is my problem with it.
You’re still conflating an adventurist coup with a revolution with mass support, the former fails every time while the latter takes more time and mass support. The latter is what people want to push, but they aren’t going to firebomb a supermarket or anything, it needs to be deeply permeated within the working class before it can happen.
And I am being forced to conclude you are ignorant to how many people online are demanding action now. Not campaigns to get the working class on your side. I also think you may have allowed yourself to get caught up in the jargon of your position to the point where you might not understand that “adventurist coup” is an unplanned revolution, but that is messy, so this lingo is simply an attempt to divert negative stigmas to revolt by doing this, and most people do not care about that rehabilitative rebranding. You also seem to take things I see other people doing, as what I am doing, or thinking. Hence you thinking I conflate a minority coup style revolution, with one with mass support. Even though I have say, a number of times in this discussion, that things like growing the popularity of your position, planning, and organizing are what I want.
Historically the great majority of people in a revolutionary state do not support it. With about 80% not supporting, 20% claiming some level of support, and only 3-4% (over 3.5% being so rare there are like 5 known instances of it), of the population actually doing anything to revolt, that includes literally anything other than saying “sure I support it”. There are currently lots of people who feel the 3.5% need to just act, not create campaigns to get most people on board with your ideas, but instead a take over, and create democracy free forced conformation to their socialist ideas. They preach that the time for popular revolution died sometime in the past, if it ever existed in the first place. They leverage extinction to justify their beliefs.
I think you may be assuming what you want, and feel is reasonable, is the only thing that is popular. That, or what you see people do in real life translates to online. I see otherwise daily. You keep telling me this isn’t happening, and I keep seeing it. Do you know how many times I have seen arguments that the west is so entrenched in capitalism the only thing that will cause change is for people to be forced to? Day dreaming about China destroying the US, and rebuilding it as some socialist utopia? I mean, you don’t seem to believe this happening, so I guess no. I also do not know how you do not see this. It honestly makes me wonder if you are seeing things, but interpreting them in a way that fits into what you are saying. Like how you see people in the US listen to Trump, the GOP, and other people in their movement, say explicitly bigoted things, call for political violence, and give direct explanations of what they plan to do, then say “Nah, that isn’t what anyone is saying, or doing”, “He didn’t mean that by saying that”, etc. I am not trying to be insulting here. I am genuinely wondering how you just miss something I see every day. These spaces aren’t that large.
I think if you’re only interpreting things through your own preconcieved notions, you’re going to come to false conclusions like thinking leftists on Lemmy hate PSL and FRSO. That’s just one example, and is why you seem insistent on something I just don’t see.
Secondly, revolution needs mass support to be successful, it can’t just be from a tiny minority, otherwise the revolutionary government falls. That’s why coups don’t solve anything, but revolution creates lasting change.
I never said they hate those organizations. I have even reiterated what I meant about this, more than once. I said there are a lot of people on lemmy, and other leftist online spaces, that will shit on people bring up things like running candidates, or believing we can/need to win over the the populous, before revolt starts, which are core actions of those groups. Do you understand this? Also I feel this is a pot calling the kettle black scenario.
Historically revolutions have not had mass support.
Right here you say PSL and FRSO are mocked. I understand what you’re saying, I just disagree, and further revolutions historically have had mass support, you brought up completely unsourced numbers. Revolutionary governments have mass support as well.
I really don’t think we are going to convince each other of anything.
Right there I have said they have had THEIR EFFORTS mocked. Are you able to distinguish mocking an organization vs mocking the things they do without thought to organization, simply actions that are not agreed with, and how that can be said to be mocking the efforts of organizations that do them? It happens all the time. You also have not posted sources for you claims that revolutions have massive support.
Yeah, I think you are right here. Especially since you are still misreading one of the first things I said to you, I honestly do not think you operating completely in good faith because of this.
I understand what you’re saying, and I’m not misreading you. You say their efforts are mocked, but you don’t actually know what their efforts actually are to make that claim. I know that you’re trying to say people are being hypocritical by supporting PSL while disavowing their what their actual actions are when sepparated from that context, but you’ve got it flipped, people support their actual actions and that’s why they support them, and you’re confused on what they actually are.
Secondly, you had clear numbers, it shouldn’t be hard to find a source for them. Socialist countries have overwhelming support, polling is consistent, and most that lived in the USSR want it back. Revolution cannot succeed without overwhelming support of the masses.
I am operating in good faith, just because we seem to be at an impasse doesn’t mean either of us is bad-faith. Not all disagreements are a result of one party being bad-faith.
I still think you’re confusing people saying revolution is necessary with saying we all need to commit adventurist terrorism now.
I think you are confusing, and/or blending, things I am saying, maybe. There are people calling for the violence part of revolution, and they tend to do so on posts that discuss, other, non-violent aspects of it. They can’t out-right say these things, as direct calls for violence will get you censored, but what they say has no other logical conclusion. Such as you can’t get what was taken by force, without force. Whether you call it adventurism, or revolution, matters not, as this is what the people I am seeing are claiming it to be. Whether they are correct, or not, is not the point here.
I am saying we need organization, and planning, first, however we are at the point, at least in the US, where I truly doubt peaceful revolution is possible. You need a plan when you are enacting revolution otherwise you either get nowhere, or you decapitate the state you are against, and leave a vacuum of power to fill, and descend into chaos. I hard disagree that you don’t actively plan for revolutionary action. Historically there has always been some level of planning, the level of planning tends to be a major determining factor on the cohesion of the end result.
My underlying point is that the people I see calling for “force to take back what was taken by force now”, or whatever euphemisms, or vagueries, they may be using to say “we need hot conflict to resolve this, and that means violence”, have never really dealt with any of the type of violence that goes into a society changing revolt. Often they will also blame people not “taking up arms”, so to speak, as the problem, while they, themselves, do not do this either. This is my problem with it.
You’re still conflating an adventurist coup with a revolution with mass support, the former fails every time while the latter takes more time and mass support. The latter is what people want to push, but they aren’t going to firebomb a supermarket or anything, it needs to be deeply permeated within the working class before it can happen.
And I am being forced to conclude you are ignorant to how many people online are demanding action now. Not campaigns to get the working class on your side. I also think you may have allowed yourself to get caught up in the jargon of your position to the point where you might not understand that “adventurist coup” is an unplanned revolution, but that is messy, so this lingo is simply an attempt to divert negative stigmas to revolt by doing this, and most people do not care about that rehabilitative rebranding. You also seem to take things I see other people doing, as what I am doing, or thinking. Hence you thinking I conflate a minority coup style revolution, with one with mass support. Even though I have say, a number of times in this discussion, that things like growing the popularity of your position, planning, and organizing are what I want.
Historically the great majority of people in a revolutionary state do not support it. With about 80% not supporting, 20% claiming some level of support, and only 3-4% (over 3.5% being so rare there are like 5 known instances of it), of the population actually doing anything to revolt, that includes literally anything other than saying “sure I support it”. There are currently lots of people who feel the 3.5% need to just act, not create campaigns to get most people on board with your ideas, but instead a take over, and create democracy free forced conformation to their socialist ideas. They preach that the time for popular revolution died sometime in the past, if it ever existed in the first place. They leverage extinction to justify their beliefs.
I think you may be assuming what you want, and feel is reasonable, is the only thing that is popular. That, or what you see people do in real life translates to online. I see otherwise daily. You keep telling me this isn’t happening, and I keep seeing it. Do you know how many times I have seen arguments that the west is so entrenched in capitalism the only thing that will cause change is for people to be forced to? Day dreaming about China destroying the US, and rebuilding it as some socialist utopia? I mean, you don’t seem to believe this happening, so I guess no. I also do not know how you do not see this. It honestly makes me wonder if you are seeing things, but interpreting them in a way that fits into what you are saying. Like how you see people in the US listen to Trump, the GOP, and other people in their movement, say explicitly bigoted things, call for political violence, and give direct explanations of what they plan to do, then say “Nah, that isn’t what anyone is saying, or doing”, “He didn’t mean that by saying that”, etc. I am not trying to be insulting here. I am genuinely wondering how you just miss something I see every day. These spaces aren’t that large.
I think if you’re only interpreting things through your own preconcieved notions, you’re going to come to false conclusions like thinking leftists on Lemmy hate PSL and FRSO. That’s just one example, and is why you seem insistent on something I just don’t see.
Secondly, revolution needs mass support to be successful, it can’t just be from a tiny minority, otherwise the revolutionary government falls. That’s why coups don’t solve anything, but revolution creates lasting change.
I never said they hate those organizations. I have even reiterated what I meant about this, more than once. I said there are a lot of people on lemmy, and other leftist online spaces, that will shit on people bring up things like running candidates, or believing we can/need to win over the the populous, before revolt starts, which are core actions of those groups. Do you understand this? Also I feel this is a pot calling the kettle black scenario.
Historically revolutions have not had mass support.
Right here you say PSL and FRSO are mocked. I understand what you’re saying, I just disagree, and further revolutions historically have had mass support, you brought up completely unsourced numbers. Revolutionary governments have mass support as well.
I really don’t think we are going to convince each other of anything.
Right there I have said they have had THEIR EFFORTS mocked. Are you able to distinguish mocking an organization vs mocking the things they do without thought to organization, simply actions that are not agreed with, and how that can be said to be mocking the efforts of organizations that do them? It happens all the time. You also have not posted sources for you claims that revolutions have massive support.
Yeah, I think you are right here. Especially since you are still misreading one of the first things I said to you, I honestly do not think you operating completely in good faith because of this.
I understand what you’re saying, and I’m not misreading you. You say their efforts are mocked, but you don’t actually know what their efforts actually are to make that claim. I know that you’re trying to say people are being hypocritical by supporting PSL while disavowing their what their actual actions are when sepparated from that context, but you’ve got it flipped, people support their actual actions and that’s why they support them, and you’re confused on what they actually are.
Secondly, you had clear numbers, it shouldn’t be hard to find a source for them. Socialist countries have overwhelming support, polling is consistent, and most that lived in the USSR want it back. Revolution cannot succeed without overwhelming support of the masses.
I am operating in good faith, just because we seem to be at an impasse doesn’t mean either of us is bad-faith. Not all disagreements are a result of one party being bad-faith.