As have I, and I have been told that the number one way to make people understand that something is good is by providing it, or aspects of it, to people. This can be affected at the local level by changing local implementations of things, providing socialist methods of doing things in place where city/county law controls. We actually worked worked with an out of state organization from Chicago, which has a lot more resources than this dying, rust belt, city, to get free public transportation in this city, a government subsidized “supermarket” that adds value on top of things like SNAP, based on need, and removed a number of long standing laws that allowed for the purchase of public land for private development. This is, of course, only some things being worked towards. They believe that being able to slap their name on these things is a better tool for convincing people to, at least, give them a chance than anything else. Also, they get to have people aligned with their movement in things like town hall discussions, televised local debates, etc. They think it is very important, because without some sort of material quality to their ideas people will not be willing to listen to them. For instance several major public hearings in our city had Ana Santoyo, and Vijay Prashad, speak after the success of the push for free public transportation, as move that actually improved the economy of the city, rather than just cost them more money.
Obviously if it could work, it would be great, but PSL doesn’t think it legitimately is feasible. They’re a revolutionary org, not a reformist one. Engaging with the standard electoralist side is more for advertising and agitating for better, not an actual plan for succeeding, because Marxists know how terrible of a plan electoralism as a means to achieve better is.
I have been saying they don’t think it is THE solution, and then I give the reasons why they think it is important. You seem to think they don’t see it as important though, or not THAT important, which they do, like other than organizing protest/aid, this is what they do. They put a lot of resources into this, you don’t spend so many resources on something that is a nice side benefit, and not particularly important.
The problem is that they don’t have specific plans beyond this. When talked about, or even when looking for things online, there is a lot of talk about how “the material conditions are not yet ready for revolution”, and other vague reasons behind not actually, really, truly, planning to execute a revolution. The other common response is that if they did that they would be destroyed like other radical groups. So, to those who see no other choice than revolution NOW, they are revolutionary in name only.
PSL isn’t a vanguard party yet, it needs to be accepted by the vast majority of the working class to do so. Electoralism helps that purpose, it isn’t expected to gain actual change. There don’t exist people that “see no choice than revolution NOW,” that’s a misconception. Rather than trying to plan an adventurist coup now, or try to win electorally, PSL uses electoralism to spread their platform and gain legitimacy so that when revolution happens, they will be the vanguard.
You seem to be under the misconception that they use electoralism as a strategy for change, which is wrong, and you also seem to think revolutionaries seek revolution now, which is wrong, and that therefore people on Hexbear/Lemmy.ml/Lemmygrad.ml must not like PSL, which is wrong again. PSL isn’t planning a coup, revolution requires mass support that doesn’t exist yet.
You seem to think I am discussing my own thoughts on the subject. We are discussing things I see other people do, remember? These are things I see people say, with frequency. I also told you exactly what I was told by the Chicago branch, which was not “change” it is because their experience is that if everything they say is immaterial, or not even heard, then they aren’t winning over the majority, so they do this.
I see people do this on the regular, so I don’t know what to tell you. You are telling me I am not experiencing what I am experiencing.
I’m in Hexbear, Grad, Lemmy.ml, etc quite frequently and I’ve never seen people act the way you’ve described. As for PSL, I’ve spoken to multiple branches, and they more affirm what I’m saying. I dunno, you’re seeing a fundamentally different experience than I am, and since you aren’t really giving examples all we can say is that we see different things.
Also, let me make something else more clear, I am pro-action in this direction. I am against people online who demand violence, but do nothing but call people shit-libs online, when something else is being discussed. It is the hypocrisy that bother me. My choices have made my life violent, and now I am older, and that has made my already shitty body worse. These people have never started a structure fire, let alone fired on human beings.
I don’t see people typically advocating for random adventurism, but revolution, which isn’t something you just do, or something you actively plan for, just organize as best you can for the time it comes.
The difference is how someone acts at home, vs how they act elsewhere, I never said I see this stuff on .ml, etc. I said I see people with those those home addresses doing it, yes it is different than hanging out in their own proverbial club house. In the thread I posted a screen cap of there are plenty of people arguing we are past the point of anything but violence, go ahead and ask them what violent things they are doing. They are keyboard warmongering, without any reason to believe they have done anything actually radical, and even reason to specifically doubt it. Bunch of people who have never thrown a molotov at police, so to speak, before demanding violence of others.
I have spoken with PSL members directly, no, you’re misunderstood.
As have I, and I have been told that the number one way to make people understand that something is good is by providing it, or aspects of it, to people. This can be affected at the local level by changing local implementations of things, providing socialist methods of doing things in place where city/county law controls. We actually worked worked with an out of state organization from Chicago, which has a lot more resources than this dying, rust belt, city, to get free public transportation in this city, a government subsidized “supermarket” that adds value on top of things like SNAP, based on need, and removed a number of long standing laws that allowed for the purchase of public land for private development. This is, of course, only some things being worked towards. They believe that being able to slap their name on these things is a better tool for convincing people to, at least, give them a chance than anything else. Also, they get to have people aligned with their movement in things like town hall discussions, televised local debates, etc. They think it is very important, because without some sort of material quality to their ideas people will not be willing to listen to them. For instance several major public hearings in our city had Ana Santoyo, and Vijay Prashad, speak after the success of the push for free public transportation, as move that actually improved the economy of the city, rather than just cost them more money.
Obviously if it could work, it would be great, but PSL doesn’t think it legitimately is feasible. They’re a revolutionary org, not a reformist one. Engaging with the standard electoralist side is more for advertising and agitating for better, not an actual plan for succeeding, because Marxists know how terrible of a plan electoralism as a means to achieve better is.
I have been saying they don’t think it is THE solution, and then I give the reasons why they think it is important. You seem to think they don’t see it as important though, or not THAT important, which they do, like other than organizing protest/aid, this is what they do. They put a lot of resources into this, you don’t spend so many resources on something that is a nice side benefit, and not particularly important.
The problem is that they don’t have specific plans beyond this. When talked about, or even when looking for things online, there is a lot of talk about how “the material conditions are not yet ready for revolution”, and other vague reasons behind not actually, really, truly, planning to execute a revolution. The other common response is that if they did that they would be destroyed like other radical groups. So, to those who see no other choice than revolution NOW, they are revolutionary in name only.
PSL isn’t a vanguard party yet, it needs to be accepted by the vast majority of the working class to do so. Electoralism helps that purpose, it isn’t expected to gain actual change. There don’t exist people that “see no choice than revolution NOW,” that’s a misconception. Rather than trying to plan an adventurist coup now, or try to win electorally, PSL uses electoralism to spread their platform and gain legitimacy so that when revolution happens, they will be the vanguard.
You seem to be under the misconception that they use electoralism as a strategy for change, which is wrong, and you also seem to think revolutionaries seek revolution now, which is wrong, and that therefore people on Hexbear/Lemmy.ml/Lemmygrad.ml must not like PSL, which is wrong again. PSL isn’t planning a coup, revolution requires mass support that doesn’t exist yet.
You seem to think I am discussing my own thoughts on the subject. We are discussing things I see other people do, remember? These are things I see people say, with frequency. I also told you exactly what I was told by the Chicago branch, which was not “change” it is because their experience is that if everything they say is immaterial, or not even heard, then they aren’t winning over the majority, so they do this.
I see people do this on the regular, so I don’t know what to tell you. You are telling me I am not experiencing what I am experiencing.
I’m in Hexbear, Grad, Lemmy.ml, etc quite frequently and I’ve never seen people act the way you’ve described. As for PSL, I’ve spoken to multiple branches, and they more affirm what I’m saying. I dunno, you’re seeing a fundamentally different experience than I am, and since you aren’t really giving examples all we can say is that we see different things.
Also, let me make something else more clear, I am pro-action in this direction. I am against people online who demand violence, but do nothing but call people shit-libs online, when something else is being discussed. It is the hypocrisy that bother me. My choices have made my life violent, and now I am older, and that has made my already shitty body worse. These people have never started a structure fire, let alone fired on human beings.
I don’t see people typically advocating for random adventurism, but revolution, which isn’t something you just do, or something you actively plan for, just organize as best you can for the time it comes.
The difference is how someone acts at home, vs how they act elsewhere, I never said I see this stuff on .ml, etc. I said I see people with those those home addresses doing it, yes it is different than hanging out in their own proverbial club house. In the thread I posted a screen cap of there are plenty of people arguing we are past the point of anything but violence, go ahead and ask them what violent things they are doing. They are keyboard warmongering, without any reason to believe they have done anything actually radical, and even reason to specifically doubt it. Bunch of people who have never thrown a molotov at police, so to speak, before demanding violence of others.
I still think you’re confusing people saying revolution is necessary with saying we all need to commit adventurist terrorism now.