ok I will give you examples later when I have more free time.
So the three main vector’s of the PSL’s approach are :
Protests
Running Local Candidates
Education about socialism/workers rights
I have had many people absolutely just deny that protest, or running local candidates works, because ultimately you are being forced to operate within capitalists rules, so the system will not allow you to break through in these ways. While education its self is seen as important, it is seen as absolute minimal work, and we are far past the point for the first steps.
I can not tell you how many times I have been told, or seen comments discussing, how these are all impotent actions. Every time I see a somewhat healthy size thread discussing running candidates, I can almost guarantee I will see people just dismiss it all as electoralism, and then tell people how they need to be out enacting the revolution, which I feel means some forms of violence, though they can’t outright just say to go bomb places, and shoot people.
Protests are seen basically pointless because, if they were effective, they wouldn’t allow them to happen. If one becomes effective, they will just call in the military, crush it, and move on like nothing happened. Ironically, a lot of these people will also defend this type of things for places like China, in other threads.
There is a growing amount of online leftists who are certain the only thing left to do is war. I do not fully disagree, the US is getting to the point were peaceful means of conflict resolution are all being removed. However, the vast majority of these people are just keyboard warriors, which I have no respect for. I have seen people call for violence, then, buried in their history, there is a casual conversation where they admit they haven’t even been in a fight before.
Protests aren’t seen as pointless, the manner in which you go about them, ie for electoralist reasons or for raising agitation and organizing, matters.
PSL is a revolutionary org trying to cement itself as a vanguard among the working class. It doesn’t plaster that everywhere, the purposes of running candidates is to show that electoralism doesn’t work.
Protests aren’t seen as pointless to you. I have had many people express otherwise. The PSL doesn’t seem to think running candidates is to demonstrate that it doesn’t work. Their take on it is that establishing a base of representatives, and other officials, in line with their values, is how to assert influence over laws, both in legislation, and with judges on your side that will create precedence in alignment with you. The second component is that is make can force broad exposure of these people, and thus their ideas, to the mainstream. It is true that they don’t think it is THE solution. However, they do not dismiss it as important, for a variety of reasons.
As have I, and I have been told that the number one way to make people understand that something is good is by providing it, or aspects of it, to people. This can be affected at the local level by changing local implementations of things, providing socialist methods of doing things in place where city/county law controls. We actually worked worked with an out of state organization from Chicago, which has a lot more resources than this dying, rust belt, city, to get free public transportation in this city, a government subsidized “supermarket” that adds value on top of things like SNAP, based on need, and removed a number of long standing laws that allowed for the purchase of public land for private development. This is, of course, only some things being worked towards. They believe that being able to slap their name on these things is a better tool for convincing people to, at least, give them a chance than anything else. Also, they get to have people aligned with their movement in things like town hall discussions, televised local debates, etc. They think it is very important, because without some sort of material quality to their ideas people will not be willing to listen to them. For instance several major public hearings in our city had Ana Santoyo, and Vijay Prashad, speak after the success of the push for free public transportation, as move that actually improved the economy of the city, rather than just cost them more money.
Obviously if it could work, it would be great, but PSL doesn’t think it legitimately is feasible. They’re a revolutionary org, not a reformist one. Engaging with the standard electoralist side is more for advertising and agitating for better, not an actual plan for succeeding, because Marxists know how terrible of a plan electoralism as a means to achieve better is.
I have been saying they don’t think it is THE solution, and then I give the reasons why they think it is important. You seem to think they don’t see it as important though, or not THAT important, which they do, like other than organizing protest/aid, this is what they do. They put a lot of resources into this, you don’t spend so many resources on something that is a nice side benefit, and not particularly important.
The problem is that they don’t have specific plans beyond this. When talked about, or even when looking for things online, there is a lot of talk about how “the material conditions are not yet ready for revolution”, and other vague reasons behind not actually, really, truly, planning to execute a revolution. The other common response is that if they did that they would be destroyed like other radical groups. So, to those who see no other choice than revolution NOW, they are revolutionary in name only.
PSL isn’t a vanguard party yet, it needs to be accepted by the vast majority of the working class to do so. Electoralism helps that purpose, it isn’t expected to gain actual change. There don’t exist people that “see no choice than revolution NOW,” that’s a misconception. Rather than trying to plan an adventurist coup now, or try to win electorally, PSL uses electoralism to spread their platform and gain legitimacy so that when revolution happens, they will be the vanguard.
You seem to be under the misconception that they use electoralism as a strategy for change, which is wrong, and you also seem to think revolutionaries seek revolution now, which is wrong, and that therefore people on Hexbear/Lemmy.ml/Lemmygrad.ml must not like PSL, which is wrong again. PSL isn’t planning a coup, revolution requires mass support that doesn’t exist yet.
You seem to think I am discussing my own thoughts on the subject. We are discussing things I see other people do, remember? These are things I see people say, with frequency. I also told you exactly what I was told by the Chicago branch, which was not “change” it is because their experience is that if everything they say is immaterial, or not even heard, then they aren’t winning over the majority, so they do this.
I see people do this on the regular, so I don’t know what to tell you. You are telling me I am not experiencing what I am experiencing.
ok I will give you examples later when I have more free time.
So the three main vector’s of the PSL’s approach are :
Protests Running Local Candidates Education about socialism/workers rights
I have had many people absolutely just deny that protest, or running local candidates works, because ultimately you are being forced to operate within capitalists rules, so the system will not allow you to break through in these ways. While education its self is seen as important, it is seen as absolute minimal work, and we are far past the point for the first steps.
I can not tell you how many times I have been told, or seen comments discussing, how these are all impotent actions. Every time I see a somewhat healthy size thread discussing running candidates, I can almost guarantee I will see people just dismiss it all as electoralism, and then tell people how they need to be out enacting the revolution, which I feel means some forms of violence, though they can’t outright just say to go bomb places, and shoot people.
Protests are seen basically pointless because, if they were effective, they wouldn’t allow them to happen. If one becomes effective, they will just call in the military, crush it, and move on like nothing happened. Ironically, a lot of these people will also defend this type of things for places like China, in other threads.
There is a growing amount of online leftists who are certain the only thing left to do is war. I do not fully disagree, the US is getting to the point were peaceful means of conflict resolution are all being removed. However, the vast majority of these people are just keyboard warriors, which I have no respect for. I have seen people call for violence, then, buried in their history, there is a casual conversation where they admit they haven’t even been in a fight before.
Protests aren’t seen as pointless, the manner in which you go about them, ie for electoralist reasons or for raising agitation and organizing, matters.
PSL is a revolutionary org trying to cement itself as a vanguard among the working class. It doesn’t plaster that everywhere, the purposes of running candidates is to show that electoralism doesn’t work.
Protests aren’t seen as pointless to you. I have had many people express otherwise. The PSL doesn’t seem to think running candidates is to demonstrate that it doesn’t work. Their take on it is that establishing a base of representatives, and other officials, in line with their values, is how to assert influence over laws, both in legislation, and with judges on your side that will create precedence in alignment with you. The second component is that is make can force broad exposure of these people, and thus their ideas, to the mainstream. It is true that they don’t think it is THE solution. However, they do not dismiss it as important, for a variety of reasons.
I have spoken with PSL members directly, no, you’re misunderstood.
As have I, and I have been told that the number one way to make people understand that something is good is by providing it, or aspects of it, to people. This can be affected at the local level by changing local implementations of things, providing socialist methods of doing things in place where city/county law controls. We actually worked worked with an out of state organization from Chicago, which has a lot more resources than this dying, rust belt, city, to get free public transportation in this city, a government subsidized “supermarket” that adds value on top of things like SNAP, based on need, and removed a number of long standing laws that allowed for the purchase of public land for private development. This is, of course, only some things being worked towards. They believe that being able to slap their name on these things is a better tool for convincing people to, at least, give them a chance than anything else. Also, they get to have people aligned with their movement in things like town hall discussions, televised local debates, etc. They think it is very important, because without some sort of material quality to their ideas people will not be willing to listen to them. For instance several major public hearings in our city had Ana Santoyo, and Vijay Prashad, speak after the success of the push for free public transportation, as move that actually improved the economy of the city, rather than just cost them more money.
Obviously if it could work, it would be great, but PSL doesn’t think it legitimately is feasible. They’re a revolutionary org, not a reformist one. Engaging with the standard electoralist side is more for advertising and agitating for better, not an actual plan for succeeding, because Marxists know how terrible of a plan electoralism as a means to achieve better is.
I have been saying they don’t think it is THE solution, and then I give the reasons why they think it is important. You seem to think they don’t see it as important though, or not THAT important, which they do, like other than organizing protest/aid, this is what they do. They put a lot of resources into this, you don’t spend so many resources on something that is a nice side benefit, and not particularly important.
The problem is that they don’t have specific plans beyond this. When talked about, or even when looking for things online, there is a lot of talk about how “the material conditions are not yet ready for revolution”, and other vague reasons behind not actually, really, truly, planning to execute a revolution. The other common response is that if they did that they would be destroyed like other radical groups. So, to those who see no other choice than revolution NOW, they are revolutionary in name only.
PSL isn’t a vanguard party yet, it needs to be accepted by the vast majority of the working class to do so. Electoralism helps that purpose, it isn’t expected to gain actual change. There don’t exist people that “see no choice than revolution NOW,” that’s a misconception. Rather than trying to plan an adventurist coup now, or try to win electorally, PSL uses electoralism to spread their platform and gain legitimacy so that when revolution happens, they will be the vanguard.
You seem to be under the misconception that they use electoralism as a strategy for change, which is wrong, and you also seem to think revolutionaries seek revolution now, which is wrong, and that therefore people on Hexbear/Lemmy.ml/Lemmygrad.ml must not like PSL, which is wrong again. PSL isn’t planning a coup, revolution requires mass support that doesn’t exist yet.
You seem to think I am discussing my own thoughts on the subject. We are discussing things I see other people do, remember? These are things I see people say, with frequency. I also told you exactly what I was told by the Chicago branch, which was not “change” it is because their experience is that if everything they say is immaterial, or not even heard, then they aren’t winning over the majority, so they do this.
I see people do this on the regular, so I don’t know what to tell you. You are telling me I am not experiencing what I am experiencing.