International sentiment generally negative about country actively committing genocide.
More at 11.
Jokes aside - yeah? Of course there's propaganda about China. I would wager its hard to find a big international power that doesn't have some level of propaganda being spread about it by the other big international powers. But between the propaganda you still find a bunch of real reasons to have negative views toward China's leadership and actions.
- Uyghur genocide (ongoing)
- authoritarian rule with huge censorship of outside media I really don't need to go on
Can we add bellicose relations with a lot of their neighbors over the expansionist goals they're pushing?
Removed by mod
Does…that make all those things okay then?
you're free to argue the points you have been in the rest of the thread, but genocide denialism is a no-go.
I read this ‘article’. There are zero references towards the so called ‘China Bashing’. If it is so rampant, how hard can it be to just link to a few mainstream offenders? It alludes towards a deliberate bashing, once again without any links or merit. I am fully aware that news is hardly unbiased but come on, this is ridiculous.
Have you been following media recently or have you been living under a rock?
I have been following media intensively. I am not saying that news about China is unbiased in the western media. I am calling out the lack of any sources in this weak ‘article’
-
As far as news outlets go, The Diplomat is rather well-regarded
-
As an opinion piece, sources are usually implicit (since opinion pieces use the reader's own knowledge of current events as the context)
-
The article points to this article for more context: https://hbr.org/2021/05/what-the-west-gets-wrong-about-china
1 I don’t know this outlet, nor am inclined to use perceived pedigree to determine the quality of news. I’d like to see sources, not news dresses as opinions. 2 Opinion pieces that try to be credible need sources or else I will disregard them as petty trolling. The title makes a bold claim, I want sources backing up that claim. 3 that ‘source’ is also an opinion peace without any sources.
Just show me where mainstream media is deliberately bashing China. If it’s that rampant it can’t be that hard right?
Again, have you been living under a rock for the past few years? You can even look at the top posts of this community.
I’m not the one making bald claims. The onus is on the one with the claims. Just show me some sources!
Again, 🤦♀️
The evidence is right in front of you, yet you refuse to see it
that ‘source’ is also an opinion peace without any sources.
?
The source of that article are the authors. One a professor at Oxford, the other a lecturer at MIT. The professor's also written a book about China which is mentioned at the bottom of the article.
It's a source.
-
That’s not a defense. Opinion pieces can be fine, but if you’re claiming that something is off the charts you should probably have some charts (or any points of data) to prove the claim.
Then… Disprove it? If there's such distinct evidence that counters the article, might as well use it in your argument lol
That's not how the burden of proof goes. The article is making a claim. It's on the article's authors to prove it.
Again, if you have such a strong argument, why don't you use it?
The person is saying the article doesn't prove their claim at all; they're not necessarily saying the article is wrong
deleted by creator
Can you prove that China isn't an oppressive authoritarian capitalist state?
Do I need to? I haven't had a visceral reaction to the article.
For what it's worth, China's affirmative action policies for minority groups put the US to shame. Significantly easier college admissions (despite using a standardized process), extremely generous business loans, proportional ethnic representation in government, vast infrastructure projects to bridge the salary gap, and celebrations of different cultures across the country. Not very capitalist of them, given that these infrastructure projects (while very beneficial to the endpoints) are not profitable.
Nobody else has had a visceral reaction, we’ve just pointed out bad journalism 🙂 Using big negative words might make you feel better, but it doesn’t make them accurate. You’re using them to be dismissive of our points
Treating minorities better than the USA isn't exactly a high bar.
My country also treats minorities better than the USA, it's easy to get into uni, celebrates diversity, has an alright social welfare system and socialised healthcare, does the occasional infrastructure project etc.
Thanks for teaching me that I'm actually living in a socialist paradise rather than a poor, neoliberal capitalist, physically isolated island where private corporations are free to wreck the environment for profit!
Significantly easier college admissions (despite using a standardized process), extremely generous business loans, proportional ethnic representation in government, vast infrastructure projects to bridge the salary gap, and celebrations of different cultures across the country. Not very capitalist of them
Sorry OP but basically none of this has anything to do with not being capitalist. I don't even doubt that China is doing better in those departments than America, but that has more to do with how utterly shit America is at most things outside of building bombs than how communist China is. They should get some kudos for executing a couple billionaires, though, gotta at least give 'em that.
Removed by mod
like, just off the top of my head there's that whole "spy balloon" thing.
A Chinese corporation openly tested those spy balloons over my country a decade ago (allegedly just for monitoring livestock), why is it so unbelievable that they'd use a more polished version on their biggest geopolitical rival?
Give me a source that shows the blatant and deliberate anti China rhetoric about the ‘spy balloon’.
U.S. president Biden … however stated that it was "not a major breach", and that he also believed that the Chinese leadership wasn't even aware of the balloon. … On September 17, 2023, in an interview with CBS news, General Mark Milley, the retiring 20th US chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, stated “I would say it was a spy balloon that we know with high degree of certainty got no intelligence, and didn't transmit any intelligence back to China." Technical experts had also found that the balloon's sensors had never been activated while it was travelling over the Continental United States. The general also touched on a leading theory that the reason that it was flying over the United States, was probably because it was blown off-track, where the balloon had been heading towards Hawaii however winds at 60,000 feet simply came into the equation. Miley said, "those winds are very high… the particular motor on that aircraft can't go against those winds at that altitude." c
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Chinese_balloon_incident
TLDR: Unbeknownst to China's leadership, one of their balloons blew off-track (hardly a rare occurence). It didn't collect or transmit any intelligence.
But if you watched the media coverage of that incident, you'd likely come to a different conclusion. For example:
Chinese spy balloon gathered intelligence from sensitive U.S. military sites, despite U.S. efforts to block it
So funny how that all got memory holed and now you have people who genuinely still think it was a spy balloon of some kind (even in these very replies!) because they just never read anything past the headlines and never followed up on it after. Just completely lacking any curiosity or news literacy but will still scoff at the thought of them being victims of very obvious propaganda haha
China: you can't talk bad about us!!!
This article is prime "SelfAwareWolves" material…
Countering this in international media by offering more balanced views for a global audience is near impossible as censorship is rife. There almost seems to be a global compact to control the narrative, a propaganda war powered by today’s digital technology.
Removed by mod
Better tell all the people critical of the Chinese government on weibo that they're in jail lol
That's right. Because not every single person is in jail, no problem exists. /s
How about this: even putting one person in jail because of political opinion is an oppressive, undemocratic action.
Julian Assange would like a word…
Better tell that to literally every government on the planet, then.
Jailing dissidents is government oppression, but it's a type of government oppression that happens in every major government, democratic or not. Welcome to the real world.
This post was about China, not other countries. What China is doing is an atrocity and your whataboutism doesn't change that.
Yeah, like Naomi Wu, famous in the maker community, who tried her best to provide a nuanced view of China before pissing off the wrong group of people and going radio silent for good.
And the fact that she was able to operate for years without issue, despite being critical of the regime for most of that period?
Oh. Right. We don't talk about that part. Her existence both contradicts and supports your point.
And the fact that she was able to operate for years without issue
I used to watch ADVChina, which was a youtube series by an American and a South African who married Chinese women and decided to live in China with their families. For years they rode motorbikes around China, filming "day in the life" type content and occasionally saying something mildly critical.
Eventually the CCP decided they didn't like them and they had to flee the country. The way they told it they had to lie their way through the border to HK to get out because the government put an exit ban on them. Now they live in California post angry anti-CCP rants.
Point being, the fact that Wu or the ADVChina guys were able to operate in China for a little while isn't proof that the CCP tolerates independent media. It is proof that the CCP can be slow sometimes to shut down people who grow a foreign audience organically using information channels the CCP doesn't yet fully understand.
Thanks for displaying your ignorance. You obviously don't know her story, because she's never been openly critical of China. Rather, she's always tried to be an ambassador for China within her community. Unfortunately, some of her actions pissed off the wrong people.
https://www.hackingbutlegal.com/p/naomi-wu-and-the-silence-that-speaks-volumes
Have you watched her content lol
Yes? She dresses sexy, but that doesn't change anything I've said
deleted by creator
This is an important difference that always gets left out in these articles.
Of course people will be anti-China when the CCP is making the movies (edit, I meant "moves" but movies works too haha). It's one thing to ask for companies to make a version of media specifically for your country, but using your weight to make that the version? That is an insanely big red flag when Tencent has roots in everything and also goes by the whim of the party.
On the flip side, my friend from college moved to China a couple years after we graduated and he's been doing really, really well. He loves it there. Ironically he ended up getting a job with Tencent and is a pretty big part of their last released Synced. So I'm glad he's doing well, but it's also been weird talking about certain topics with him. It was also weird when I was asking about how he was talking with me and he's like "oh I just have to get on a VPN and etc so I that's why I'm not around much, but it's cool lol." Kinda freaky when I also just see the articles about a company getting fined for using a VPN. I'm sure he'll be fine but it's still slightly worrying.
Which ultimately kind of sums up the situation. My friend loved his experience in China so much so that he moved back there seemingly permanently and set himself up with a nice life with the culture seeming to be a big part of that. And then there's the actions of the government. Many of the same criticisms can absolutely be held toward the U.S. regarding housing and towards a not-so-small portion our political actions, however it seems the difference is that we don't have a knitted corporate government quite yet. I dunno, the sway of Apple, MS, whoever else just doesn't have the same weight as the CCP and Tencent. That generally seems to be peoples issue
deleted by creator
I dunno, the sway of Apple, MS, whoever else just doesn't have the same weight as the CCP and Tencent.
The fact that you name Apple and Microsoft makes me think there is a blind spot here. If you are taking about big tech with it's tendrils in US policy I'd go for Google and Facebook. Big pharma and the military industrial complex are even bigger issues. These industries don't just undermine the US but harm the global community as well. Then you have think tanks, often funded by capital, shaping narratives and foreign policy.
I more just didn't want to list more than 3 companies, hence "whoever else". You're right that Google and Facebook are closer to the tendrils of Tencent than MS or Apple, or well, Apple at least.
The government of the United States is also highly untrustworthy, but plenty of other nation's governments engage and cooperate with the US. This isn't whataboutism, it's evidence that there must be other factors.
deleted by creator
certain factions within the US government have been untrustworthy.
between far-right, corporate factions and those groups that actually defend some semblance of democratic liberty.
This just sounds like a whole lot of liberal US apologia. It isn't actually far off from regressive phrases like MAGA or A Few Bad Apples. There was no golden time when the US has been a bastion of freedom and human welfare and it mostly shows signs of getting worse, and you cannot fix the US by removing a few politicians.
Are they at all comparable as reflections of the viability of each respective state's potential to sustain human liberty? No.
I don't see what the point is of picking two specific events when we are discussing nations and governments as a whole. Taken in totality the US does not and has not ever shown signs of sustaining liberty as you put it. The law and order system is a joke, human welfare is a joke, safety is a joke, education is a joke, foreign policy is a joke. A lot of these fundamental issues are completely ignorable for the privileged, and the last one ignorable if you live in the US itself, but I am not looking to have liberty for some and not others.
You're not required to sing the praises of the US, but acknowledging the meaningful degree of difference is critical to preventing the world sliding further into an authoritarian paradigm.
I disagree. I think what you're doing right now is what strengthens authoritarianism in "Western" countries. Always framing Western countries, especially the US, as the lesser of two evils just justifies nationalism and militarism and downplays the need for radical change. What's the point of this liberty you speak of if we don't use it to criticize our own governments, and why stop at just criticism? The truth is you'll only realize how thin your liberty actually is when you actually pose a threat.
But I'm not sure how we got on this tangent. I was simply responding to the notion of geopolitical trust and how that relates to the US and China. The US reneges on international agreements all the time or simply does not adhere to them. The government also partakes in the manipulation of foreign governments, extrajudicial murders in foreign countries in "times of peace", and sabotages countries with embargos. All of this should make the US untrustworthy, but the unspoken part is that when we talk about trust we are taking about among Western countries. These nations have some shared geopolitical goals and because the US's violations aren't against these nations but against ones where say the common religion is different or the people have a darker average complexion they can be ignored.
What's the point of this liberty you speak of if we don't use it to criticize our own governments, and why stop at just criticism? The truth is you'll only realize how thin your liberty actually is when you actually pose a threat.
You're conflating a comparison with an endorsement.
One can say the US is unquestionably better than China while still acknowledging the US has issues.
I'd challenge you to find any country that's truly "trustworthy." That doesn't mean I think it's impossible, I just think historically humans suck at governorship.
As for what's different between the US and China, your original point, I think a lot of it is just what's available/who has the better deal. The US historically has the better innovations, the better weaponry, and in the case of Europe, bidirectional cultural influences, and there's just a lot more history with the US as a partner and a lot more families with folks in both locations.
deleted by creator
Westerners? I'm foreign-born Chinese, and you couldn't pay me to enter China. My anti-ccp sentiments combined with their sense of ownership of all Chinese people regardless of birth nation means I'm probably on a low priority list somewhere.
deleted by creator
Just gonna drop an article about Naomi Wu, famous maker, as a counterpoint to all those who keep claiming free speech exists in China.
https://www.hackingbutlegal.com/p/naomi-wu-and-the-silence-that-speaks-volumes
It's almost like if they want people to not hate their country they should stop being a corrupt authoritarian hellhole
to be clear: the "they" here is the chinese government rather than the chinese people, correct? your comment is a little ambiguous
Oh so like India and America, corrupt democratic hellholes?
Yes, exactly. Most people don't want their governments to copy imperialistic authoritarian capitalist shitholes like China, the USA, or Russia.
The American government being awful doesn't mean that everybody else should copy them and be as awful as they can.
What reference do you have then, though? You've basically eliminated every country of reasonable size: India, China, America obviously, but also Pakistan, Indonesia, Brazil, Russia, Mexico and Nigeria, Bangladesh are in similar states.
Yeah and? I don't want to live in an oppressive shithole, doesn't matter to me if they became oppressive because they were copying China, the USA, Nigeria, the UK or whatever - they'd still be oppressive!
I honestly didn't think that saying "I don't like authoritarian capitalism" would be such a controversial statement…
You've expressed disapproval without giving a solution. How would you ask the US or China to change and why do you think that would work?
I've legitimately got no idea how they can fix their countries (or if they can even be fixed) as I'm more focused on my own country. I do not want my country to copy either the USA or China, and I resent the close relationship my government maintains with both of those oppressive states.
The USA pressured our government into performing illegal searches/arrests to favour their corporations, and the CCP has repeatedly been caught infiltrating our parliament. Those big authoritarian countries just bully smaller states to get what they want, and we need to stop pretending that it's morally justified and normal. It's not okay.
Hi, fellow Canadian!
To some degree there's a need to pick a side, because the alternative is to get stomped on by both (like what's happening now).
By that, you mean criticism of China's known actions that are detrimental to their neighboring countries and the world?
If you want to call that "anti-China", then sure, but it's an appropriate reason to be, just as appropriate as being "anti-Russia".
Pro-China Rhetoric Is Off the Charts in Chinese Media
Stop the press!
China is the one county that could just tell Russia to get out of Ukraine. Same with North Korea. Just look at who they hang out with and you know quite a lot.
Why would they? The Global South is completely unaligned with the West on the Russia-Ukraine issue. It's an issue between Russia and the West, not a global issue.
Of course they would not. They have chosen to be aligned with Russia. This whole thing is a Russia / China thing.
The entire Global South is aligned on this issue.
I guess they don't matter to you because they're poor.
Most of the global south is aligned in staying out of it as much as possible. Their self interest is to play nice to all sides and play all sides.
It is not the entire global south. I think Australia and Taiwan would both feel differently. Very convenient of you to forget that. From the original UN vote it showed that the Russian invasion was widely condemned through out the world including global south with some notable exceptions too.
Do you even know what the term Global South refers to? Given that you refer to Australia as being part of the Global South, I'm going to assume not.
Don't talk about things you don't understand.
And you would not be correct.
Many countries included in the Global South are in the northern hemisphere, such as India, China and all of those in the northern half of Africa. Australia and New Zealand, both in the southern hemisphere, are not in the Global South
Time Magazine
It was generally agreed that the Global North would include the United States, Canada, England, nations of the European Union, as well as Singapore, Japan, South Korea, and even some countries in the southern hemisphere: Australia, and New Zealand. The Global South, on the other hand, would include formerly colonized countries in Africa and Latin America, as well as the Middle East, Brazil, India, and parts of Asia.
Gendered Lives: Global Issues
Do you just enjoy being wrong?
It's a human rights issue. People like you and me are dying.
Why should the Global South care? People are dying there, too. We have a spoiled Western perspective.
For the same reason that the West should care about people being murdered around the world: it's a human rights violation.
Everyday people need to remember the difference between the general Chinese population and the CCP. The Chinese people are wonderful. The CCP is horrific, and working tirelessly to create their own version of hell.
Nobody would deny this. On the other hand, it's the same argument as "not all Russians support Putin" or even—dare I say—"not all Germans were Nazis." It's true that when you live under a despotic regime there's not much you can do about it, individually. And most people would not willingly be complicit in the regime's crimes except to the extent that they have no choice.
But it's true that these regimes do have lots of internal support. They wouldn't exist without that support. And to the extent that this support is manufactured by internal propaganda, people within that message-space will not be able to resist having their own perceptions shaped by it.
So while it's undeniably true that the CCP is not the Chinese people, and that the Chinese people are the principle victims of the CCP, they also are complicit in a collective sense.
I’m being generous. I tend to think that the Chinese people (or people of any country, really) are victims of propaganda. We’d all be less supportive of our various governments if we weren’t constantly told that we’re the GOOD guys, and our enemies are BAD and EVIL.
I second this. I love Chinese people and culture, hell, I'm even learning Chinese to be able to communicate with my Chinese gf's parents, however CCP ≠ Chinese people.
However, when you travel in China, you don’t have to travel far before you realise that broadly the Chinese support their government because things are getting better and in many places are on par or better than the west.
I don't think I'll ever voluntarily go to China. I've said bad things about the CCP, so I'll most likely be on some kind of list.
As for your other claims, i honestly doubt it.
I love how you start off by saying you've never been to China and you never intend to go, then immediately discard the claims of someone that's been there a lot.
You're not the only person I know who been to China.
Ha ha fair enough.
Does that version of hell include transit, affordable housing, education, upwards mobility, and healthcare?
Chinese healthcare makes American healthcare look good by comparison. It is mostly private and you're expected to bribe the doctors, nurses, orderlies and have a family member stick around the hospital the whole time pestering them or you won't receive care. Same with Education, which is like the American Ivy system times 1000. Housing in China is… well, just try googling Evergande. Upwards mobility involves either climbing the party hierarchy or "leveling up" from being a rural peasant to being an urban migrant worker with bad hukou.
You got me on transit though, the Chinese have built some amazing trains.
Yeah: mass transit (transit) into camps (housing) for "re-education" (education), with the chance to get forcefully married to a real Chinese man (social mobility), or end up having your organs harvested (healthcare)
Do you have any idea what happens in China outside of the limited view presented by journalists who have never stepped in the country?
Do people really need to know more? I don't think there are any virtues that could make up for China's treatment of Uyghurs and the people who try to save them.
A lot of stuff. But that your point basically boils down to "not all of China is about genocide!" is more than enough to know that it's not worth my time arguing with you.
Do you know the context behind Xinjiang or the affirmative action that China takes on its minority groups? Have you ever been to Xinjiang?
Do you know the context behind there's no fucking context to genocide, it's just a fucking holocaust?
"affirmative action that China takes on its minority groups" good god, have the balls to call it what it is dude. China is doing a genocide. If that doesn't bother you, that's your deal, but at least own up to what you are defending
Yeah that's true. As long as there is good transit, everything is fine. That Hitler guy built the autobahn. Must have been a great leader.
McCarthyism's back yo! Or, rather, it never really left.
McCarthyism has changed because now the "communists" look different and talk different and aren't white.
Thanks for the self-report. thediplomat filtered.
deleted by creator
It's an option in Sync for lemmy.
deleted by creator
*Chandran Nair is the founder and CEO of the Global Institute for Tomorrow. He is the author of “Dismantling Global White Privilege: Equity for a Post-Western World” (Penguin Random House, 2022). *
