I’m not trying to get into a big back-and-forth about this, but just to take one more stab at what I’ve been saying:
The Moon video, Jobst, and the article someone else sent me here all seem to be in agreement that Jirard is on video claiming to have already donated money that it turned out later he hadn’t donated. I’m not sure where you’re getting that there’s a lack of evidence of charity fraud.
Jobst, if I remember correctly, showed the clips of him saying it. Moon said they were “obvious miscommunications or simple misstatements.” Ernie said they were “slip-ups” and that he was just filling time on his stream. To me, the latter two sound like bullshit. You are, of course, free to draw your own different conclusions and judgements about any or all of this. Just the fact that he said some things doesn’t automatically mean he’s guilty. But it’s weird to say there’s no evidence when all the sources seem to acknowledge (with their own wildly differing spins on the presentation) that there is.
As for your implication that I’m just saying all this because I wasn’t interested in the video, I just like Karl Jobst’s videos, etc:
“Well, I haven’t ignored [evidence for creationism]; I considered the purported evidence and then rejected it. There is a difference, and this is a difference, we might say, between prejudice and postjudice. Prejudice is making a judgment before you have looked at the facts. Postjudice is making a judgment afterwards. Prejudice is terrible, in the sense that you commit injustices and you make serious mistakes. Postjudice is not terrible. You can’t be perfect of course; you may make mistakes also. But it is permissible to make a judgment after you have examined the evidence. In some circles it is even encouraged.” -Carl Sagan
I’m not sure where you’re getting that there’s a lack of evidence of charity fraud.
The Moon video quite derisively mocks his and OrdinaryGamers’ definition of charity fraud, as coming from the equivalent of “legal Tinder” for matching lawyers and clients, with the distinction being that one is interested in being easy to understand while the other is a definition that determines whether or not someone violated the law. They demonstrably typed in “definition of charity fraud” and went with the top result regardless of its reliability. The Moon video then goes on to point out several ways that the charity could be operating that would make the actions of Open Hand not just legal but ordinary. Jobst has circumstantial evidence for lots of things, and Jirard could be guilty of some of it. Given the scrutiny he’s about to be under, we’ll know for sure inside of a couple of years. The problem with what Jobst did is that we ought to be sure now, and we’re not. If we’re going to destroy someone’s reputation (and the jobs of the people that he employs in the process) for doing something nefarious, we should know for sure that he actually did it.
I watched that section of the video, yes. Did you watch the section of the video after that, that I listed the timestamps of? I talked about it at some length.
Actually: I’ve exhausted the length of time I want to spend on this. Sorry. You’re right that the early section of the video spends a ton of time being derisive towards Jobst, and explaining at incredible length that charities can in general do whatever they want with their money, which is true, and throwing shade at Jobst and strawmanning his complaints a little.
After quite a long time of that, it finally gets around to acknowledging one of Jobst’s core complaints, which was not just that Jirard did whatever he wanted with the money (which is his right), but that he lied about it (which is, with certain caveats and reservations, a crime.)
I pretty much gave up on the video when he finally did admit that that happens but dismissed it so airily as oh, that was a “misstatement,” it’s fine, instead of acknowledging it in any kind of head-on manner or making some convincing argument that Jirard wasn’t actually on video lying about it.
I’m actually find with tedium; I was irritated at the video because not because it was dry (it wasn’t really), but because it seemed like it was spending time obfuscating the truth and dealing with trivialities. Did a lawyer help Jirard with his apology video? Probably. Where did Jobst get the simplified explanation of charity fraud he used in his video? I don’t care, as long as the conduct does match the actual definition. Why was Jirard “saving” the money? It honestly doesn’t really matter – he can, as Moon notes, do whatever he wants, as long as he doesn’t lie about it. But if he does lie, all of a sudden the explanation for why he was doing what he was actually doing when he was saying something else is probably irrelevant. Just get to the point. Etc.
Anyway. That’s my take on it. You’ve got yours. Good luck and all the best.
I’m not trying to get into a big back-and-forth about this, but just to take one more stab at what I’ve been saying:
The Moon video, Jobst, and the article someone else sent me here all seem to be in agreement that Jirard is on video claiming to have already donated money that it turned out later he hadn’t donated. I’m not sure where you’re getting that there’s a lack of evidence of charity fraud.
Jobst, if I remember correctly, showed the clips of him saying it. Moon said they were “obvious miscommunications or simple misstatements.” Ernie said they were “slip-ups” and that he was just filling time on his stream. To me, the latter two sound like bullshit. You are, of course, free to draw your own different conclusions and judgements about any or all of this. Just the fact that he said some things doesn’t automatically mean he’s guilty. But it’s weird to say there’s no evidence when all the sources seem to acknowledge (with their own wildly differing spins on the presentation) that there is.
As for your implication that I’m just saying all this because I wasn’t interested in the video, I just like Karl Jobst’s videos, etc:
“Well, I haven’t ignored [evidence for creationism]; I considered the purported evidence and then rejected it. There is a difference, and this is a difference, we might say, between prejudice and postjudice. Prejudice is making a judgment before you have looked at the facts. Postjudice is making a judgment afterwards. Prejudice is terrible, in the sense that you commit injustices and you make serious mistakes. Postjudice is not terrible. You can’t be perfect of course; you may make mistakes also. But it is permissible to make a judgment after you have examined the evidence. In some circles it is even encouraged.” -Carl Sagan
The Moon video quite derisively mocks his and OrdinaryGamers’ definition of charity fraud, as coming from the equivalent of “legal Tinder” for matching lawyers and clients, with the distinction being that one is interested in being easy to understand while the other is a definition that determines whether or not someone violated the law. They demonstrably typed in “definition of charity fraud” and went with the top result regardless of its reliability. The Moon video then goes on to point out several ways that the charity could be operating that would make the actions of Open Hand not just legal but ordinary. Jobst has circumstantial evidence for lots of things, and Jirard could be guilty of some of it. Given the scrutiny he’s about to be under, we’ll know for sure inside of a couple of years. The problem with what Jobst did is that we ought to be sure now, and we’re not. If we’re going to destroy someone’s reputation (and the jobs of the people that he employs in the process) for doing something nefarious, we should know for sure that he actually did it.
I watched that section of the video, yes. Did you watch the section of the video after that, that I listed the timestamps of? I talked about it at some length.
Actually: I’ve exhausted the length of time I want to spend on this. Sorry. You’re right that the early section of the video spends a ton of time being derisive towards Jobst, and explaining at incredible length that charities can in general do whatever they want with their money, which is true, and throwing shade at Jobst and strawmanning his complaints a little.
After quite a long time of that, it finally gets around to acknowledging one of Jobst’s core complaints, which was not just that Jirard did whatever he wanted with the money (which is his right), but that he lied about it (which is, with certain caveats and reservations, a crime.)
I pretty much gave up on the video when he finally did admit that that happens but dismissed it so airily as oh, that was a “misstatement,” it’s fine, instead of acknowledging it in any kind of head-on manner or making some convincing argument that Jirard wasn’t actually on video lying about it.
I’m actually find with tedium; I was irritated at the video because not because it was dry (it wasn’t really), but because it seemed like it was spending time obfuscating the truth and dealing with trivialities. Did a lawyer help Jirard with his apology video? Probably. Where did Jobst get the simplified explanation of charity fraud he used in his video? I don’t care, as long as the conduct does match the actual definition. Why was Jirard “saving” the money? It honestly doesn’t really matter – he can, as Moon notes, do whatever he wants, as long as he doesn’t lie about it. But if he does lie, all of a sudden the explanation for why he was doing what he was actually doing when he was saying something else is probably irrelevant. Just get to the point. Etc.
Anyway. That’s my take on it. You’ve got yours. Good luck and all the best.