I think this is a little too hostile for my blood to be honest. I’m having what I believe to be just kind of a friendly, academic discussion. This isn’t meant to “prove somebody wrong” or get into a fight.
Anyway, I know you think it’s a fallacy and that is a valid opinion, but it is a pretty widely accepted perspective among historians and academics in other fields. I mentioned another comment the book That Noble Dream which covers the objectivity question in history. Might be worth thumbing through it or looking at some excerpts. It’s a pretty seminal historiographical work and puts forth what is basically an accepted fact (lol) when “doing” history. You’re telling a story assembled from various narratives and doing your best not to do violence against certain narratives or omit certain voices.
Obviously you can never be 100% airtight, and as others have said it does not mean you shouldn’t try since we can’t be “perfect” and objective, but if we can’t acknowledge the limitation and the fact that objectivity is a myth then we will continue to see people cry out for “objective” news sources and the like whenever they don’t like something. That’s the real fallacy. And the secondary negative consequence is it encourages stripping down topics to the point where not only is nuance lost, but valid perspectives and narratives from people are completely disregarded/omitted.
Again, you are comparing a historical discussion to reporting on current events. They are very different situations with different expectations.
I get that you are happy that you learned something interesting in philosophy class. And that is a very important thing to understand. I love discussing the nuances of history and the motivation behind different wars (and understanding those would help a lot with current conflicts…). But it has very little to do with the nightly news or being aware of current events.
History and news go hand in hand with their philosophies.
I get that you are happy that you learned something interesting in philosophy class.
This is a really obnoxious way to communicate with people. There is no reason to be dismissive because you disagree with me. I have been nothing but cordial and this was wholly unwarranted. You know literally nothing about me, my background, or expertise.
No. You came into a discussion of why it is important to support good news outlets with “Well, Philosophy 101 taught me that there is no such thing as an unbiased or good news outlet” and continue to not understand the difference between “8000 civillians have been killed in the retaliatory bombings over the past few weeks”, “8000 people died as a result of the Hamas terrorist attacks in the past few weeks”, and “The root cause of World War 2 is…”
It is an inherently bad faith argument coming from a position of ignorance, at best. So maybe I don’t know your background, but I very much can make informed decisions on what your expertise, or lack thereof, is and can see strong indications that you are doing your best to not scream “fake news, fake news”.
Peter Novick is basically considered the father of modern historiography. To reduce his work to “philosophy 101” is incredibly dismissive of a great mind and an important figure who has done much for history as a field. His work is thoughtful, interesting, and important, if a bit dry.
You claim I am ignorant yet you are dismissing a cornerstone of humanities as a field without even knowing who he is or what he wrote. That’s like saying “I don’t really know who this Cerf guy is but I don’t give a shit what you learned in CompSci 101.” That would be profoundly ignorant to say.
Have a good one man. I’m done. This was a really shitty interaction to have today but I guess that’s just one more reason to spend less time around here. Not going to let you get me all bent out of shape. Cheers.
I think this is a little too hostile for my blood to be honest. I’m having what I believe to be just kind of a friendly, academic discussion. This isn’t meant to “prove somebody wrong” or get into a fight.
Anyway, I know you think it’s a fallacy and that is a valid opinion, but it is a pretty widely accepted perspective among historians and academics in other fields. I mentioned another comment the book That Noble Dream which covers the objectivity question in history. Might be worth thumbing through it or looking at some excerpts. It’s a pretty seminal historiographical work and puts forth what is basically an accepted fact (lol) when “doing” history. You’re telling a story assembled from various narratives and doing your best not to do violence against certain narratives or omit certain voices.
Obviously you can never be 100% airtight, and as others have said it does not mean you shouldn’t try since we can’t be “perfect” and objective, but if we can’t acknowledge the limitation and the fact that objectivity is a myth then we will continue to see people cry out for “objective” news sources and the like whenever they don’t like something. That’s the real fallacy. And the secondary negative consequence is it encourages stripping down topics to the point where not only is nuance lost, but valid perspectives and narratives from people are completely disregarded/omitted.
Again, you are comparing a historical discussion to reporting on current events. They are very different situations with different expectations.
I get that you are happy that you learned something interesting in philosophy class. And that is a very important thing to understand. I love discussing the nuances of history and the motivation behind different wars (and understanding those would help a lot with current conflicts…). But it has very little to do with the nightly news or being aware of current events.
History and news go hand in hand with their philosophies.
This is a really obnoxious way to communicate with people. There is no reason to be dismissive because you disagree with me. I have been nothing but cordial and this was wholly unwarranted. You know literally nothing about me, my background, or expertise.
Have a good rest of your day.
No. You came into a discussion of why it is important to support good news outlets with “Well, Philosophy 101 taught me that there is no such thing as an unbiased or good news outlet” and continue to not understand the difference between “8000 civillians have been killed in the retaliatory bombings over the past few weeks”, “8000 people died as a result of the Hamas terrorist attacks in the past few weeks”, and “The root cause of World War 2 is…”
It is an inherently bad faith argument coming from a position of ignorance, at best. So maybe I don’t know your background, but I very much can make informed decisions on what your expertise, or lack thereof, is and can see strong indications that you are doing your best to not scream “fake news, fake news”.
Peter Novick is basically considered the father of modern historiography. To reduce his work to “philosophy 101” is incredibly dismissive of a great mind and an important figure who has done much for history as a field. His work is thoughtful, interesting, and important, if a bit dry.
You claim I am ignorant yet you are dismissing a cornerstone of humanities as a field without even knowing who he is or what he wrote. That’s like saying “I don’t really know who this Cerf guy is but I don’t give a shit what you learned in CompSci 101.” That would be profoundly ignorant to say.
Have a good one man. I’m done. This was a really shitty interaction to have today but I guess that’s just one more reason to spend less time around here. Not going to let you get me all bent out of shape. Cheers.