Cethin

Again, GUI is faster to learn, CLI is faster to use.

TLDR really helps though, rather than man pages.

Yeah, easier to learn, slower to use.

GUI is often faster to learn, but CLI is almost always faster to use. It’s the argument people use for why they choose it. You don’t have to move your mouse to click on buttons that can be anywhere. You just type. With tab completion, it’s significantly faster.

(There is a secondary argument for CLI for tutorials, in that it’s going to be the same or similar for everyone.)

Would you agree that the dashboard of a car is UI? If so, isn’t that just data visualization?

Out of the box? Probably, as Ubuntu doesn’t come with everything you need for gaming, so it doesn’t work at all. Once you install all the same packages I imagine it’s about the same. Usually a distro isn’t doing anything particularly special. It’s mostly just a collection of packages, which you can install on any other distro as well.

Again, the point is you were saying (or agreeing) that copies being available for free decrease the value. You then later say it has intrinsic value.

I’m not arguing that they don’t have intrinsic value. I’m arguing that you undermined the point of value decreasing if it exists for free by admitting this. It doesn’t. It’s worth something no matter what someone else paid, and no matter what you paid.

A game decreasing in price over time isn’t doing so because it’s worth less (usually, with the exception of online games). They’re decreasing the price to capture customers who don’t agree with the original valuation. It doesn’t change value to the consumer based on the price changing. The object is not suddenly less valuable when there’s a sale and more valuable again after. It has a degree of “goodness” no matter what. The price doesn’t effect this.

Also also, either the thing you’re copying has value that arose from the effort of creating it, or it doesn’t. If it’s of value, then it’s reasonable to expect payment for it. It’s it’s not of value, then you shouldn’t miss not having it.

Doesn’t this contradict the whole rest of the argument? It either has value or it doesn’t. It being available for free somewhere doesn’t change the value. If it’s not of value, then they shouldn’t miss you having it.

They get paid. They just don’t get a share of profits. They are usually paid a salary or, increasingly more commonly, are paid as a contractor.

Adding on to say: no. It doesn’t cost the creator anything when a pirated copy is made. They potentially miss a sale, but if their item wasn’t in a store where someone may have made a purchase you wouldn’t call that actively harmful, right?

In addition, most media the creators don’t actually make money from the profit. Most of the time they’re paid a salary, maybe with a bonus if it does particularly well. The company that owns the product takes the profit (or loss), not the actual creators.

Also, a lot of media isn’t even controlled by the same people as when it was made. For example, buying the Dune books doesn’t give money to Frank Herbert. It goes to his estate.

The difference is basically a nationalist thinks they’re superior. They don’t care about facts or anything, the just know they are the best. A patriot knows they can learn from others and improve things. They’re trying to improve things, not just force themselves on others.

I know I’ve said this so many times now, but you keep just wanting to say it’s the same as nationalism. This is my last reply I think because you just keep insisting I’m saying things I’m not.

I don’t know, man, I struggle to share your very US-centric view…

I used examples from the US. None of what I said had anything to do with the US outside of examples. I didn’t say this is only the case in the US or anything like that. Again, you keep putting words in my mouth. Argue in good faith or don’t at all. You’re just wasting both of our time.

You’re putting words in my mouth saying that I said American revolutionaries were great people. I never said such a thing, nor would I. Stop reading more into what I said than I actually said please.

They were people willing to lay their lives down for something they thought was worth fighting for. Not out of some ignorance that the status quo is the best option, but because they wanted to make changes to improve things for their community (and their self too, sure). That’s what patriotism is.

I’d argue that it’s necessarily not pristine. You have to be willing to get dirty. You don’t win a war with honor. You win it by killing other people until the other side isn’t fighting anymore. The same is true for any fight (not the killing necessarily, but being willing to do what needs to be done).

I just brought them up as an example of patriotism though. I’m not saying they’re a perfect example, just an example. This isn’t about the US, like you’re making it to be. You’re not arguing against the point. Your entire comment can be boiled down to “American revolutionaries are bad” but it doesn’t say really anything about patriotism.

Anyway, my point is, don’t let nationalists take the term. Maybe you don’t, but most people have positive opinions if the term. It’s easier and more useful to take the term back, because it isn’t necessarily a nationalist term. There are plenty of leftist patriots throughout history and the world. The right is good at using language as a weapon. We should be too, and we shouldn’t back off every time they try to use it.

No it isn’t, they could use a mouse if they wanted to, and they aren’t. Sure it helps that the Steam Deck is portable, but if you think they are all sitting there wishing they could have a mouse and keyboard you are being silly. We aren’t talking about what makes the most convenient way to game on the go, if using a mouse and keyboard provided a critical increase in accuracy and speed using a weapon system you better believe they would stick a fucking logitech wireless mouse in the pockets of their army fatigues?

I’m not going to spend a lot of time on this, but not, you wouldn’t. It wouldn’t be practical. Watch this and you’ll understand that it really isn’t an option. You don’t have a nice desk to sit at while you’re doing this stuff. You’re in a war zone. It’s a totally different situation, and not comparable, to you sitting in your comfy home. Again, this is not stating which is better (probably controller anyway), just that it doesn’t matter to the conversation. For example, soldiers eating MREs doesn’t prove they’re the best meal. No, they’re practical, portable, and stable, which you need because you’re in a fucking war zone.

If you want to look at a better situation, look at pro players of games. They’re on KB&M.

you are deceiving yourself because you can’t admit that high level quake play just shits on any kind of counterstrike style game

I don’t know what this even means. Requires more skill? Is that what you mean? The amount of skill required is purely dictated by level of play. Top level players will likely be at the extent of human ability, no matter the game (assuming it has a large enough player base). Top level play is defined as the limit of skills, making them effectively all equal. Quake has a high skill floor, but the ceiling is essentially as high as CS. If you mean shits on as in it’s “better” then I don’t care, and apparently neither does anyone else because CS is watched and played far more.

NOTE Counter Strike is just as hard as a competitive game as Xonotic, it is probably way harder given the immensity of it’s playerbase that has also mastered these mechanics.

We agree.

I don’t know what I’m spending my time here on. I agree controller has some advantages. So does KB&M. Use them for what they’re best at.

Computer people/gamers are no different than any other demographic of humans in that they will irrationally refuse to try certain things for no good reason

I agree. Again, look at CS pros. They stuck to using 4:3 (sometimes black bars, sometimes stretched) for a long time, even on 16:9 monitors. However, they adapt over time. Literally none have gotten to a high level with a controller, even though plenty have played with them, even with gyro.

Edit I mean I didn’t even bring up rocket league lol…

Edit 2 My second edit got lost, but suffice to say gestures at FPV drones and RC hobby not giving a shit about wanting mouse and keyboard level precision control in the field because THEY ALREADY HAVE IT with their tools.

I feel like you didn’t read my comment and just started ranting. I said controllers are better for some things. Driving and flying in particular. These both have custom hardware better suited for them usually though. We haven’t replaced steering wheels in cars because they’re better for driving. We haven’t replaced sticks in (most) planes because they’re better for flying. Controllers are best at being cheap, versitile, and convenient. They do suit drone flight well though, and may be ideal for that. Even without the Deck, drones were controlled by a dual stick system usually, so a controller naturally fits.

Well, then what fatherland is the patriot beholden to?

Cause that’s what the word means.

The land (and people), but not necessarily the state.

(The term state ahead is really annoying.)

Maybe part of it comes from being in the US, where we have a weird form of double governance of the “state” and “federal” governments. Which state are we loyal too, because they’re both ours? It makes things more malleable. The states could agree to form a totally new federal government if they wanted to.

A patriot may care for whatever arbitrary definition the XVIIIth century put on their identity and be well meaning enough about it. I’m not a patriot. The historical borders of what some consider a nation today have no particular relevance, beyond the fact that they happen to drive some level of administration.

There are multiple definitions of country. Some don’t care about the state that defines the borders. Your country is the land where you were born, not the state necessarily. One example that comes to mind in the US, which spans multiple states, is “Appalachia.” Appalachian people are a broad culture group who live in the Appalachian mountain region, and are distinct from the states they reside, and the larger US obviously. They are countrymen of each other.

I have no particular interest in whitewashing any of that into some supposedly healthy version of patriotism that has very rarely existed in any way.

No, the problem is some other people have changed the term to mean nationalist. For example, in the US, people were called patriots for fighting for the people in the colonies against the state that controlled them (Britain). They didn’t approve of the state and wanted to improve it, so they fought to change it and left the former state that was controlling them. Patriotism doesn’t have to be blind support of a state, and I’d argue that isn’t patriotism, because you aren’t defending it from bad actors/actions.

Regardless, I find that “making their country better” should be a distant second to “making the world better”, and perhaps a close third behind “making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better”.

I find this statement odd. So you think it’s best to start local, right? OK, so next from your immediate community, you should expand out, eventually to country, then to world, right? Isn’t that the logical progression. From more influence to less? Why is your priority jumping all over?

Look, I am not a globalist anarchist.

Funnily enough, I am an Anarchist. I don’t know if I’d call myself a globalist, but probably. I also believe in well structured democratic governments. Those aren’t at odds with each other.

Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don’t have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It’s all administrative stuff as far as I’m concerned.

I think we’re in agreement. This isn’t counter to what I said. I’d say it’s in unison with it. People should work to improve their governments in any way they can. They should try to reshape it to better represent them. That’s what a patriot would do, not just settle for the status quo and assume they’re the best possible version there can be.

Patriotism is very cool. Nationalism isn’t, which has mostly subverted the term patriot. A patriot stands up when their nation is doing something wrong. They don’t blindly believe they’re the best, they recognize that there’s things they can improve. They fight to make their country better, not to make others worse.

Than you are like most mouse and keyboard players where you confidently assume mouse and keyboard is the best control method end of story.

No, it’s great for driving and flying. It’s also the best option for most souls-likes and third person melee games.

That is a Ukrainian soldier using a steam deck to control actual weapon systems real humans…

OK, this is a stupid point. This is a much different scenario than someone sitting at home. The Deck is portable, light, and has control and display built in. It’s perfect for this, where a desktop wouldn’t really work. Even if the control scheme isn’t ideal (which it’s great for controlling a drone, but that’s beside the point), setting up a keyboard and mouse with a monitor and power would be horrible for them.

Honestly if I sound snarky it is because I have grown to love how unshakably mouse and keyboard players believe they are using the only method to play competitively.

For aiming, it’s almost always better. Controller is better for movement usually. Controller inputs are between 0 and 1. Mouse is unrestrained, so it’s more precise and faster at the same time.

Especially in a battlefield type FPS game with aircraft, mouse and keyboard players will hilariously refuse to fly with anything other than mouse and keyboard…

Again, controller is great for driving and flying. You can swap inputs freely though. Use both if you want. Driving and flying on KB&M is not that bad though, and aiming with a controller is significantly worse, so if you’re choosing one KB&M is the right choice.

me flying circles around people

*Recording of me playing the best arena shooter, Xonotic, with joysticks and gyro. Sure there are plenty of quake players that could annihilate me…

I like that these follow each other. Of course you can get clips that look good, and also you know there are clips where you look bad. What does that prove?

Note that Xonotic is one of the fastest competitive games period, which means slower competitive games are comparatively in terms of dynamic aim and movement skill FAR easier to master the mechanics of than Xonotic, so Xonotic is the perfect proving ground to prove this.*

This is irrelevant to the conversation, but there are different types of mechanical skill. The skill you use in Quake is not the same as the skill you use in Counter Strike, for example. Both of them require incredible skill at high level play. Largely it’s down to accuracy VS precision. Quake style you need to be more accurate (shoot in the right area) but less precise. CS you’ll be aiming in the right spot already, so you need less precision and more accuracy. You’ve got a fraction of a second to get a headshot, and you have to hit it. Gyro aim is likely only going to make that harder.

There’s a reason top level players of all competitive shooters (and gaming in general usually) on PC use KB&M even though controllers are usable on PC. If there was an argument here you’d see at least a few using controllers.

Someone mentioned fwupd in another comment. I haven’t tried it, but hopefully it works.

I don’t know of any that controller would be better than keyboard and mouse though, so if you’re that engaged with comp, shouldn’t you just sit at your computer?

For the Souls games, binding sprint and use item to them is a game changer (though I haven’t played them with my 8bitdo, but I did with my Steam Controller). Normally you have to claw grip to run, move, and look, but with back buttons you can avoid that.

I agree, though it’s to a much lesser extent. Regular people can find a small group that support whatever views that have without any push back. Public figures make money (or get elected, or whatever else) off of public perseption, though this sometimes creates a situation where being bad is positive for them too.